Agenda item

Three members of the PD Local Access Forum presented their landowner perspectives on public access.

Charlotte Leech, Deputy Estates Manager for Chatsworth Settlement Trustees, is primarily involved in the management of the property portfolio of the estate, gave a presentation on the challenges of public access.

The core estate is made up of Chatsworth House, the gardens and estate villages. Further to that there are sites such as Thor’s cave, parts of the Manifold Valley, Park Hill and Monsal Dale, plus the Scarcliffe and Staveley estates to the East.  This also includes 42 miles of Rights of Way and concessionary routes, including moorland, woodland and river banks.  There are approximately a million visitors to Chatsworth a year, with a long history of public access.  For the last 2 years the team have been developing a whole core estate plan for the next 20 years.  This will measure environmental, economical and cultural impacts, and how the estate plan will contribute to the special qualities of the National Park.

Managing the Estate is complex – including developing projects, removing barriers to access,  route improvement, as well as maintaining relationships with remote managers, tenants and partners.  There are conflicting interests of user groups, and sensitive areas to protect from visitors.  Maintenance costs are high, and there has been a huge increase in visitor numbers with associated problems of parking, littering and conflict during, and continuing after, Covid.  Health and safety considerations are a big part of managing the estate.

Improving and maintaining access is seen as an opportunity to support the hospitality and retail industry and welcome a range of visitors.  New partnerships have been formed to support the management of sites and visitors, such as with the National Park, National Trust, Emergency services and local communities.  They are also looking at Citizen sites where the public can report back on species and any issues, as well as providing more and better facilities to a wider audience.

Ben Seal pointed out that although there is a lot to be applauded from the work outlined in Charlotte’s presentation for cyclists, horse riders and walkers regarding access to the countryside, water isn’t generally accessible, and is preserved for those wanting to fish, which then puts barriers in place for those who want to swim, paddle and canoe.  What are the challenges to Chatsworth in enabling this access?

Charlotte stated that in relation to Chatsworth, where a river runs through the estate, this is complex to resolve, and needs to be explored with landowners along the full stretch of the river.

Nick Doran asked if concessionary routes for walkers and cyclists are publicised.  Charlotte responded that these weren’t yet advertised as they are still being developed in line with some of the other work on the estate, such as in forestry areas. 

Martin wanted to check whether there will be cycle storage at Chatsworth as part of the plan to extend the cycle route from Rowsley into Chatsworth, and whether the route will carry onto Baslow.  Were there any plans to look at cycle hire in Rowsley.   Charlotte advised that they hadn’t progressed that far with the planned cycle route.

Charlotte Gilbert continued the theme of benefits and challenges of public access from the perspective of a farmer and land manager.

Charlotte explained the set up of her farm, where there are lots of public access opportunities.  Farming is a business producing food, but farms need to diversify into farm stays, B & B’s, livery services and campsites as well, in order to be viable.  Charlotte is generally positive about all the opportunities to engage with the public – it’s a chance to educate, be socially interactive, to share a passion, to help the business and to facilitate health and physical benefits.

There are challenges such as anti-social behaviour, livestock on public access areas, wild camping, dogs not being kept under control, impact on wildlife, litter and maintaining signage.  There are measures that can help reduce some of the problems, such as ensuring that paths are well sign posted, and that stiles and gates are easy to use, as well as being non confrontational when approaching members of the public who may have gone off the pathway or blocked a gate with their vehicle.

Charlotte detailed some of her own experience and pointed out that where people want to visit and enjoy rural areas, they will want to park their cars, walk their dogs, camp overnight and have BBQs.

Charlotte emphasised that most people want to do the right thing, it’s just a few that cause problems.  Those problems are significant, and dog worrying and dog attacks are not uncommon.  Better publicity of the Countryside Code would be useful, and having the right signage in the right place is helpful.

Jez Kenyon felt that the wider population has a lack of knowledge of the Countryside Code.  People won’t follow rules if they don’t know why they are there, so there needs to be a better public understanding of the issues.

Nick said there was a particular problem with dog owners and people accessing the countryside in a responsible way, and queried how that situation could be improved.

Charlotte Gilbert, as a long standing dog owner herself, said that there should be a good reason for dogs to be off lead.  Her dogs are working dogs, but are on the lead at all other times.

Charlotte Leech mentioned that designated walking areas can be established for people to exercise their dogs.

Louise said that there is a big issue with contract dog owners that she’s heard from elsewhere.

There were general comments and observations from LAF members about signage that is left in place longer than is necessary, and queried who puts up way markers. People were possibly more respectful and had a better understanding of the countryside previously, and what is the role of volunteers in educating people on access to the countryside.

Ben welcomed the discussion and felt it was good not to be adversarial.  The CLA wanted to reduce the liability of landowners for incidents on their land, and wondered if the cost was preventing promotion of access.

Charlotte Leech said that for a large organisation it’s absorbed as a management cost, but might have more impact on smaller scale landowners.

Charlotte Gilbert advised that it depends on the type of Right of Way accessed on your land, but much of the liability lies with the local authority.  As a farmer the insurance liability costs were fairly low.

Joe Dalton said there was a conflict with people and nature, and the 24 hour a day nature of people accessing the countryside meant that nature doesn’t get time away from that pressure. Which includes straying livestock causing a bio security risk, to damage to moorland from wild fires, along with camping and litter.

Louise added that although nature protection prevails in the National Park, it still wanted to encourage people to visit, which is a challenge.

Alastair Harvey, in his role with Yorkshire Water, mentioned that they have an obligation to enable access to their sites, and inappropriate behaviour was particularly bad during Covid, but things had slightly improved recently.  More onus has been put on landowners to resolve these issues that were previously enforced by the relevant authorities, who are themselves now limited because of resourcing issues.  Off-roading by motorbikes was an increasing problem.  Most people have a good, enjoyable visit and left no trace of their activity.  He agreed with an earlier point about contract dog walkers causing problems.  Better understanding by the general public was important, and educating and informing people had been attempted with varying levels of success.

Louise suggested there are different solutions for different areas, with varying levels of resources available.

Craig Best, who works for the National Trust, gave a presentation from the NT perspective on public access to their sites.

Craig agreed that dogs are a problem, and NT are looking at setting aside dog run areas.

The National Trust operates as a business that gets its income from visitors, members, car parks and tenant farmers.  Visitors are a valuable part of the running of the NT.  Some sites don’t need promoting.  Dovedale is a very busy site, and Mam Tor has half a million visitors every year.  It’s estimated there are easily over a million visitors to National Trust sites in the Peak District.  Better monitoring of those numbers could lead to more resources being put into those sites, but it’s not easy to count visitor numbers to countryside areas.

Litter isn’t something the NT can influence too much, but having a presence, engaging with people, and clear signage helps.

Dovedale attracts a diverse audience that is not typical of NT visitors.  People are travelling up to a couple of hours to get there.  It can’t be staffed fully till late in the day – there may be scope for adding facilities there, such as designated BBQ areas.  A pragmatic approach is needed.

At Mam Tor, where there is a hill fort, there is erosion.  As there are high visitor numbers there, there is a need to invest to protect the site.  A bid has gone in for Heritage Lottery funding to support that work.

Ben Seal was glad to hear that the NT are being open minded on measures such as BBQ areas, which acknowledged that people are using the countryside differently – they want to swim, canoe and BBQ.

Craig stated that the river at Dovedale is part of a large national nature reserve, but the people impact is small.

Charlotte Gilbert recognised that the money is important.  The National Trust have funds to support visitors.  Chatsworth is supporting both visitors and farming.  Funding for access should be adequately reflected in any payment schemes.  Individual farmers need support.

Craig responded that the NT work closely with tenants, and supports them to tap into funding, and to develop whole farm plans.  Income purely from farming is small, whereas payments from environmental outcomes and diversification, including woodlands, can be worth while.

Clare Griffin left the meeting at 12pm

Martin Bennett queried why people are still buying bottles of water when reusable containers are widely available. It could be that there is limited opportunity to refill them, and people need support to do the right thing.

Louise felt that when looking at what landowners are rewarded for, access is the poor cousin.  Money is needed to trial things and encourage innovative thinking.